Thoughts of a messed up Christian saved by God's grace

Friday, July 27, 2018


   Just as there is a gay community, there is also a community of Christians who are attracted to the same sex but are living for God and not giving into those attractions. Some have never had a sexual experience with the same sex....or opposite sex, some have had sexual experiences with the same sex, and some have lived the gay lifestyle with a same sex partner or many partners for several years. Some have managed to marry the opposite sex and make it work.

    There are also differing degrees of deliverance. Some have been delivered completely of all attractions and are not attracted to the same sex at all anymore. Some are attracted to the person of the opposite sex they are married to, but are still not attracted to any others of the opposite sex. Others, most likely the majority, have been delivered from the sex and lust - or never had the sex - but will most likely have the attractions for the rest of their lives for the same sex.

  All of these comprise a community of people who are or have been attracted to the same sex, and have put God above their sexual attractions and desires.

   So what does one call this group of people? That is what I am writing this blog post for. The opinions are wide and varied among we who deal with these attractions, and some discussions/arguments can get quite heated as everyone gives their opinion.

 One term that used to be fairly popular was "ex-gay." I personally have no issue with that one, but it doesn't seem many people like it. It is also highly ridiculed by those still living the gay lifestyle, and has been compared to the X-Men movie characters...a reference some of you will not get. By the way, people who dare suggest change is necessary, and dare to change are hated intensely by the gay community and liberals in general. You're a girl and don't want to be? They are fine with that. Don't want to be heterosexual? They are fine with that. Don't want to be gay? They aren't OK with that. And ironically, they claim gender and sexuality are fluid....

   The term that is becoming increasingly popular that I do not like and have a problem with, is "gay Christian", or "gay".Now imagine you don't know me, do not know my religious/church background, or really much of anything about me. If I would come up to you and say "I am a gay Christian", or "gay", what are you going to assume? There is almost a 100% chance you are going to assume I am living as a gay male, having sex with other guys, and possibly even having a partner or guy I am "married to." You are not going to assume I am living a celibate life according to the Bible, and living clean of sex and lust with other guys. If "gay Christian" is used,  most or all people are going to assume I am one of those people ascribing to gay theology......those who believe the Bible doesn't really say homosexuality is wrong, and that you can have sex with others of the same gender and be a Christian.

   Wesley Hill wrote a great book some years back titled "Washed and Waiting", relating from his experiences what it is like to be a Christian guy attracted to other guys. It is a great book that is one of the better ones written on the subject. In recent years, he has spearheaded a movement called "Spiritual Friendship", where he and others refer to themselves as "a gay celibate Christian". This sounds confusing to me. Imagine you are of the world, and someone tells you that. You are most likely going to think "what on earth are they talking about?!" Most Christians are going to wonder the same thing.

   Here is the thing about the gay label, whether it is attached to Christian and/or celibate: it is an identity. If a person truly wants to leave the gay life behind, should he carry the gay identity around? I have used the example that one doesn't say they are a Christian thief, a Christian murderer, a Christian rapist, etc. I still believe that is a valid point to make, but a friend of mine disagrees and pointed out with the rest of those, people choose to do those sins. Being attracted to the same sex is not a choice or a sin, and if you believe it is, you are clueless about such things. So my friend disagrees that my point is valid.

   Whether it is a valid point and argument or not, it is a valid point and true statement that gay is an identity. If we are Christians living for God, our identity should be in Him, not in our sexuality. We are children of God. There are actually a lot of words in the Bible to describe us that are healthy and good.

   Many people that are alcoholics refer to themselves as an alcoholic for the rest of their lives, even if they quit drinking. I cannot believe that is is healthy and helpful to constantly refer to oneself as an alcoholic if one is trying to be delivered from that......and neither can I believe it is helpful and healthy to refer to oneself as gay if you are trying to leave that sin behind and live for God. Oh I am all to aware that the attractions and desires may be a lifelong struggle, and that it may be a daily denial of oneself and one's desires and attractions......but I believe with all of my being that the struggle will be all the more difficult if the person clings to the very identity they claim they are seeking freedom from.


 Revoice is a new thing that has come along this year. The organizers of this movement and conferences feel that Christians in the church who are attracted to the same sex are misunderstood, ignored, and many are feared and not used in their churches. There has been a lot said and written about Revoice. Many people have concerns about it, while others think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I fall on the side that has concerns. One of those concerns falls in with what I have been talking about, which is why I brought Revoice up:

 In their mission statement, they say they want Christians who are LGBTQ to have a place to come so the church can hear their voices and affirm them as Christians. If you are not sure what those letters all stand for, I'll list them:


  This has made the conferences/movement all the more problematic to me. The gay Christian label is bad enough for people who are actually genuine Christians, but now we are going to have Christian lesbians, bisexuals, transgender, and questioning?

 Do these people truly want to live for God and leave their sexual identity behind, or are they wanting to hold onto it with one hand while trying to hold onto God with the other?

 I have heard the arguments, and I remain convinced you are either Christian or gay, not both.

  I don't deny the church needs to do better with we among them dealing with this very tough issue. Many are ignored, marginalized, refused to be allowed to serve in the church, ostracized, and thought the worst of. Many of us are misunderstood, lonely, feared, and more. But the solution is not to cling to our gay, lesbian, transgender, etc identity while claiming to be Christians. There is so much more in Christ to identify with, we don't need the old gay identity that is connected with sin, sinful desires, and lust.

 Things like these:

• I am a child of God.
But to all who have received him--those who believe in his name--he has given the right to become God's children … (John 1:12).

• I am a branch of the true vine, and a conduit of Christ’s life.
I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me--and I in him--bears much fruit, because apart from me you can accomplish nothing (John 15:1, 5).

• I am a friend of Jesus.
I no longer call you slaves, because the slave does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because I have revealed to you everything I heard from my Father (John 15:15).

• I have been justified and redeemed.
But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).

• My old self was crucified with Christ, and I am no longer a slave to sin.
We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin (Romans 6:6).

• I will not be condemned by God.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

• I have been set free from the law of sin and death.
For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).

• As a child of God, I am a fellow heir with Christ.
And if children, then heirs (namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ)--if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him (Romans 8:17).

• I have been accepted by Christ.
Receive one another, then, just as Christ also received you, to God's glory (Romans 15:7).

• I have been called to be a saint.
… To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours (1 Corinthians 1:2). (See also Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1, and Colossians 1:2.)

• In Christ Jesus, I have wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
He is the reason you have a relationship with Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption … (1 Corinthians 1:30).

• My body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who dwells in me.
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you (1 Corinthians 6:19)?

• I am joined to the Lord and am one spirit with Him.
But the one united with the Lord is one spirit with him (1 Corinthians 6:17).

• God leads me in the triumph and knowledge of Christ.
But thanks be to God who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and who makes known through us the fragrance that consists of the knowledge of him in every place (2 Corinthians 2:14).

• The hardening of my mind has been removed in Christ.
But their minds were closed. For to this very day, the same veil remains when they hear the old covenant read./netbible2/index.php?header=&book=2co&chapter=3 It has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away (2 Corinthians 3:14).

• I am a new creature in Christ.
So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away--look, what is new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17)!

• I have become the righteousness of God in Christ.
God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).

• I have been made one with all who are in Christ Jesus.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female--for all of you are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

• I am no longer a slave, but a child and an heir.
So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God (Galatians 4:7).

• I have been set free in Christ.
For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery (Galatians 5:1).

• I have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.
Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).

• I am chosen, holy, and blameless before God.
For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love (Ephesians 1:4).

• I am redeemed and forgiven by the grace of Christ.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace (Ephesians 1:7).

• I have been predestined by God to obtain an inheritance.
In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11).

• I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)--when you believed in Christ--you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13).

• Because of God’s mercy and love, I have been made alive with Christ.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you are saved (Ephesians 2:4-5)!

• I am seated in the heavenly places with Christ.
… And he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus … (Ephesians 2:6).

• I am God’s workmanship created to produce good works.
For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them (Ephesians 2:10).

• I have been brought near to God by the blood of Christ.
But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:13).

• I am a member of Christ’s body and a partaker of His promise.
… The Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 3:6). (See also Ephesians 5:30.)

• I have boldness and confident access to God through faith in Christ.
… In whom we have boldness and confident access to God because of Christ's faithfulness (Ephesians 3:12).

• My new self is righteous and holy.
… Put on the new man who has been created in God's image--in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth (Ephesians 4:24).

• I was formerly darkness, but now I am light in the Lord.
… For you were at one time darkness, but now you are/netbible2/index.php?header=&book=eph&chapter=5 light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light (Ephesians 5:8).

• I am a citizen of heaven.
But our citizenship is in heaven--and we also await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ … (Philippians 3:20).

• The peace of God guards my heart and mind.
And the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:7).

• God supplies all my needs.
And my God will supply your every need according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:19).

• I have been made complete in Christ.
… You have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority (Colossians 2:10).

• I have been raised up with Christ.
Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God (Colossians 3:1).

• My life is hidden with Christ in God.
… For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3).

• Christ is my life, and I will be revealed with Him in glory.
When Christ (who is your life) appears, then you too will be revealed in glory with him (Colossians 3:4).

• I have been chosen of God, and I am holy and beloved.
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience … (Colossians 3:12).

• God loves me and has chosen me.
We know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you … (1 Thessalonians 1:4).

The faith of Donald Trump

Warning: This post may make the heads of die hard Trump supporters explode. I am not even posting the link on Facebook as I normally do, as I don't want to see heads explode on there. You have been warned.  

   Back during the 2016 election, Hillary Clinton suddenly became very religious. She talked about how important her faith was to her, and even claimed a preacher sent her Bible verses daily on her cell phone for her to read and study. The response from conservatives and evangelical Christians was ridicule, and well deserved. The idea that this very corrupt woman being a Christian who had been caught lying and was suspect of much more, was ludicrous. And how amazing that right at election time when the Christian vote was wanted was when she suddenly became so religious.

   But then Donald Trump, a man who to my knowledge had never done or said anything religious, suddenly became a born again Christian.....according to James Dobson. A man (Trump) who had not long before that said he had never done anything he needed to repent of.....a man who is vulgar, cheated on 2 wives and bragged about it, owned strip clubs, bragged that he liked to grab women by their genitals, who said Planned Parenthood did a lot of good, had donated money and given other support to liberals for years...including the Clintons, a man who fought the Tea Party and had held the opposite view on everything Christians and conservatives held dear for years. And like Hillary becoming religious miraculously at election time, his miraculous conversion happened just when he needed the Christian vote.

   Yet Hillary's religious experience was scoffed at, while Donald Trump's was held up as true by his supporters, and anyone who dared question it was called judgmental and a Pharisee.....even though no change had ever happened in his behavior or language. And still, if one dares point out how bad his behavior is, you are told that "he is still a baby Christian." As I asked a Facebook friend who deleted me for it, just how long does the baby Christian stage last? He has supposedly been a Christian since a little before the election, which makes it close to 3 years......yet the man is still a bully, a jerk, he still acts horribly, and has not changed at all. No matter how badly he acts or talks, no matter what he does....his evangelical supporters will claim he is a Christian and that he is a baby Christian. So where was this charity for Hillary? And why does he never testify to his conversion and talk about what Jesus has done in his life? Why does James Dobson and others have to say he is a Christian and had a conversion? Because it was a political move to get the Christian vote, and a ton of gullible Christians fell for it and continue to fall for it.

    I have a theory. It would appear that as long as Donald Trump, and possibly others in the office he holds, does some things politically that his supporters want, they equate that with his being a Christian and it being God's will that he won the presidency. Hillary Clinton and Obama, on the other hand, have done nothing that conservatives and evangelical Christians support or want, so they cannot be Christians. When it comes to politicians, actions and words are not an indicator of their Christianity, but what they do politically is. Sound off the wall? Yes, but I believe it to be true.... and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

   Let me be blunt: Donald Trump is a bully and a jerk. He treats people horribly, and acts in some ways like Obama. Though his supporters love to point out that he wasn't a politician, he supported liberals and their policies and thus is liable for some of the bad laws and polices put in by the liberals he has funded. Though his supporters crow about him draining the swamp, he helped make that swamp and is part of it.

   As news comes out about his dealings with prostitutes and his paying people off to keep them quiet, his loyal supporters say it doesn't matter and is in the past.....yet they would be screaming from the rooftops if there was a "D" by his name instead of an "R". No matter what is brought up about Trump, it is in his past, he is a wonderful Christian, and it doesn't matter......yet everything in other liberals' pasts matter, no matter how far back. I even had a friend post the following:

I Don't Care About The Trump Tapes. I Don't Care Who Trump Slept With While He Was A Private Citizens! You Hear That #Mueller

   Now can you imagine my fellow conservatives having that attitude about him if he had run and won as a liberal? Those very things WOULD matter if Trump didn't have an "R" by his name.

  I dislike Donald Trump for a lot of reasons:
The pressure I got to vote for him when I felt I could not in good conscience vote for him.

The nasty things said by so-called Christians because I stood against him.

The double standard his supporters held and still hold with him.

The comparing of this vile and corrupt man to good men and women of the Bible.

The over the top worship and adulation of this man.

   I have sarcastically taken to calling him the Republican Messiah, and that is not a big stretch. The things Christians say about him are nauseating and over the top. The Bible did NOT foretell him becoming president. It was NOT God who put him in, but so-called Christians who for some ungodly reason beyond me made him the GOP nominee over several good conservatives and decent people... which  gave us not one bad choice, but two.

   I don't mean this in an irreverent way, but if Donald Trump is a Christian, then Jesus was wrong about the Christian way being a narrow way......it is as broad as it can be.

   A book recently came out titled "The Faith of Donald Trump." Since I have too many snowflakes on Facebook, I didn't say what I wanted....but I will say it here. If I still worked at the Christian bookstore I used to work at, I would not know whether to put the book in fiction or humor. For it is both.

  If the world keeps going the way it is going, the day may come when we face true persecution. And from what I have seen of Christian's reactions to criticism of Trump and questioning of Trump's Christianity, evangelical Christians aren't going to handle persecution very well if they can't handle their guy being criticized or their voting choices questioned.

Friday, July 6, 2018

Your Other Brothers....concerns and caution

  I ran across Your Other Brothers (YOB) soon after they formed. It is a website where a handful of mostly young guys who are same-sex attracted write posts, which you can also get by email or read on their website. They have also started a podcast recently.

 If you are attracted to the same sex and wanting to be a Christian, it is a rough road. It is lonely, and not many people understand or seem to care. One needs encouragement from others in the same boat, and YOB seemed to be a good place for that.

 However, there have been posts that concerned me, and the amount of posts that concern me has increased. I am going to address those concerns, but first explain why I am doing this blog post:

  A couple of weeks ago, I was bothered a lot by a post and commented on the Facebook page of one of the guys, the one who seems to be in charge of the site and the guy in charge.  He has since blocked me.

 Earlier this week,  I was again bothered by a post and shared some concerns about it and other posts on their site. They deleted it.

   Before they deleted it, it was seen by some people. Two of those guys contacted me, one of whom I know. They both echoed my concerns, and they both said they had commented with their concerns and had their comments deleted. It would seem these young men cannot handle anyone disagreeing with them or pointing out concerns. I am going to chalk it up to their being so young - most of them seem to be in their 20's and 30's. Sure, there is no excuse for their refusal to consider concerns and their deleting comments addressing them....but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for their youth.

 I am going to address the 2 most recent posts that concerned me, and go from there:

1) Queer Eye

A newer addition to their team did a blog post talking about a show he watches on Netflix  called Queer Eye. I am not entirely sure of what it is all about, but it is definitely a gay show that approves of and glorifies being gay. I think I can safely say if you are trying to live for God and have either left the gay life or are trying not to enter it, watching a gay themed show like that is not going to help you avoid temptation, nor is it going to help your relationship with God.

 And worse, there is the danger of weaker guys reading that post, thinking it is OK to watch shows like that, and falling into sin because a Christian guy with the same struggle as they are discussed how great the show is. (Post here.)

 Ask yourself this question: If you are a guy struggling with same-sex attractions, and are either trying not to go back to the gay life as you serve Christ, or are trying to never go into the gay life at all as you serve Christ......is it going to help or hinder you to watch a gay themed show that affirms everything gay?

 A friend of mine watched a 20 minute clip on YouTube, and said it was full of sexual innuendos and jokes about the male penis.

 Maybe...just maybe these guys can watch the show and not be hindered in any way - though I find that highly doubtful - but the chances of everyone reading their excited approval and defense of the show not being hindered is next to impossible. There is no reason or call for guys running a site to encourage and help others with SSA to post about how great a gay themed show is, and then defend it to anyone who brings up concerns..... and many are bringing up concerns.

 I have a Christian friend at work who is a security guard. I was chatting with her yesterday and asked her to answer a question for me. She knows I deal with SSA, and I wanted the opinion of a Christian who does not. I asked her: "Should a Christian guy who is leaving the gay life behind and trying to avoid going back to it, be watching a gay themed TV show?" She was a bit shocked, and said "absolutely not." She gave reasons, such as it would possibly pull them down. I then explained why I asked, and she recommended I stay away from that site.

2) Gay pride

 Gay pride was the topic of a post last week. The main leader, who blocked me, asked all of the other guys their opinions of gay pride. To my disgust, but not surprise, a couple of them seemed to approve of it and gay pride parades. I firmly believe no Christian should approve of gay pride, but again it is even worse for guys with their platform to voice approval and support of it. (The post is here if you want to read it.)

  There is one guy who often posts a warning with what he says in case someone is triggered. He has often discussed his sexual past, not in graphic detail, but enough detail. I feel he both glorifies his sexual past, and makes it sound like he misses it....the latter being true of some of the other guys. They sound like they wish they were back in their "gay days".....something a friend of mine also mentioned.

 Some years ago, I read about a gay man who was into cross dressing and really lived the gay life to the extreme. He became a Christian and left the gay life behind. One thing he did came to mind as I consider these guys watching a gay themed TV show and defending doing so: This man had a red convertible. He rode it in gay pride parades, and it was such a part of his gay life that he felt he needed to get rid of it.....so he did. I doubt you would have found a guy like that watching gay themed TV shows.

 There were a couple of posts where one guy explained why he wants to be LGBT(Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgender). Those posts: here, and here.

 There have been several posts where they talked about past friendships that they almost, or did sexualize in their minds, and spend a lot of time moaning about lost friendships, which sound like they happened because they smothered the friends.

  Overshadowing my other concerns, is the effect some of these posts could have on their readers. I mentioned it already, but it deserves repeating and emphasis. Here you have a group of mostly young guys with same-sex attractions who came up with this website to I assume help and encourage other guys with the same struggle. You would think when others voice concerns about their content, that they would prayerfully consider those concerns, knowing they could lead guys astray with their posts. But for some reason, they refuse to consider such a thing, and shut down any discussion or comments that bring that up.

   I did not write this blog post to be mean or vindictive. Had these guys given consideration to what I and others have said, I doubt I'd be doing it. And one has to wonder how many others have expressed concerns and have been shut down. What are the odds that there were just 2 others that saw my comments before they were deleted, and contacted me? I'd say the odds are slim and it is more than likely that others have also commented with concerns and have been dismissed and shut down.

  I don't mean to be rude, but it truly does not speak well for these guys to not only post things that are questionable, but to delete comments with concerns is not just rude and irresponsible, it is not Christ-like.

 I have linked to their site on my blog, and I am removing that and don't plan on following their site anymore, and am cautioning anyone else who does that they may want to stop visiting the site.

 One of the guys who contacted me made a sad but interesting statement, in light of the seeming missing of the gay life by some of these guys: He wondered where these guys will be in 10 years. If they keep reliving their gay past, watching gay shows, it is possible they will be back where they came from. I hope not, but as my friend also said, they are playing with fire. And it almost seems like they are looking back and longing for the good old gay days by the tone and content of some of their posts.

Follow up:
I used the contact email for the site, giving some of my concerns and telling them I was doing a blog post with my concerns since they had deleted them. I received a reply from the oldest and most conservative guy on the site apologizing that my concerns were discarded. He specifically addressed the gay pride post and didn't feel anyone was approving of gay pride....I feel the idea is given that a couple of them do. It was a nice email, and I replied with a long one outlining my concerns and those of a friend. He replied back and said he would try to get the other guys to consider more what they are posting.

Yesterday,  the main guy sent the following email:

Hey there, Mark.

Thanks for your email. I much prefer this medium for constructive dialogue.

That being said, threats don't inspire me to engage. I always tell people if they don't like how we operate our site ... start their own. I'd personally love to see more voices and communities form in this arena of faith and sexuality.

   The "threat" was my telling them I was doing this blog post since they ignored and deleted concerns of mine and others. He also did an audio post addressing comments that disagreed with some of their posts, and called it nitpicking. I disagree, I believe we have legitimate concerns about a website geared to help guys with same-sex attractions, but may do the opposite.

 Also, I went to  the post about the TV show, and there are others not just expressing concerns about that TV show, but about the direction of the website. These guys need to figure out if they are going to actually post things to help and encourage others, or if they are going to post things approving of gay themed shows and other gay things, and give the idea that though they are Christians, they miss the gay life.

 And if you are one who follows their site, I would give a word of caution. Some of these guys are living too close to the edge. Instead of getting as far from their sin and temptation as they can, they are playing around the edges and are liable to fall back into it. I just hope they don't take anyone with them.

Another update, July 16 2018:
One of the young guys on the site penned this arrogant and uncharitable post condemning anyone who expressed concerns about their content. I am starting to think it best if the site gets shut down. Not only are they posting things that could bring weaker guys down, they don't care, and they attack those with concerns instead of prayerfully considering those concerns.

Post here: https://www.yourotherbrothers.com/2018/07/10/challenge-yob-readers/